In June of 2020 WAESN Executive Director, Tracy Castro-Gill, and Board Director, Jeff Stone, were invited to discuss Ethnic Studies with April Berg, Democratic candidate for State Representative in the 44th District. The conversation included everything from what is Ethnic Studies, to who should teach it, and the status of Ethnic Studies in Washington State.
Below is the video of that conversation followed by the transcript.
April: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Kitchen Conversations. I’m April Berg. It’s great to see you. I’m excited about today’s episode. We’re gonna talk about ethnic studies in K-12 education, and welcome Jeff and Tracy to my kitchen. I wish you were here live, but cheers. Hopefully you have a yummy beverage to enjoy while we have this, this conversation about such an important topic. Just to let you folks at home and, uh, and on the go know, Tracy, uh, Castro-Gill is the Executive Director of Washington Ethnic Studies Now, and Jeff Stone is a director with Washington Ethnic Studies Now. He’s also lead, um, ethnic studies instructor for the ethnic – Edmonds School District.
Welcome both to my show. Thank you so much for being here today, um, and thank you for, for talking to us about this important subject.
Tracy: Thank you.
April: So, yeah. So, I’m gonna kick it off, um, for, for Tracy and Jeff, both of you guys can chime in on this one. It’s super basic. What is ethnic studies?
Long pause and laughter.
Tracy: Um. You wanna go first, Jeff?
Jeff: Sure. Um, the thing about ethnic studies, it’s not what most people think it originally is. And so, uh, kinda some basic ideas of that, it’s – ethnic studies is a repurposing of schools, uh, really away from an assimilationist model, uh, working towards education being a space of liberation. Um, and that idea of liberation is when it gets complicated, uh, to be polite in terms of what that looks like in each space. Um, one of the – some of the big things that, that to make a space of liberation is that we, uh, all the curriculum, the courses, the departments, uh, it all works to center and honor the past, present and future realities faced, uh, and Black, Inidgenous, uh, Latinx, Asian communities – Pacific Islander communities, um, and it’s really moving away from a white, Eurocentric, uh, storyline.
April: mhm, mhm
Jeff: Tracy – wanna continue?
Tracy: Yeah, I think a lot of people, when they hear ethnic studies, they think of their only exposure to ethnic studies at the university level where it’s very compartmentalized. Uh, we, at Washington Ethnic Studies Now, follow more of what Dr. Duncan-Andrade calls pan-ethnic studies, which is the critical analysis of race, and power, and privilege in the United States, and colonialism. And so, like Jeff said, um, it really focuses on indigeneity, and I know a lot of people kind of ruffle their feathers, especially in the Pacific Northwest where there is a, uh, large degree of indivenous influence from, um, indigenous Pacific Northwest People, but indigeneity is a concept that applies to everybody because all of us have ancestors that are indigenous to somewhere, and if it’s not indigenous to here, what does that mean in context for you? How do- how do power dynamics play out in that. And so, ethnic studies, um, really critically analyzes that in a way that is systemic – systematic – in, in institutions. And so, like Jeff said, we don’t think of Washington – at Washington Ethnic Studies Now – we don’t think of ethnic studies as curriculum, we see it as education reform.
April: mhm. That’s powerful. So that’s – it’s a lot broader. Because, I think for me, I was introduced to ethnic studies in the university, in a predominantly white university, and so it was very compartmentalized. It was very much like, “You’ve got your one quarter. Check that box and keep it moving.” Um, so when, when folks are asking in this moment, “So, does ethnic studies – does that include Black history?” “Well, if I – if I’m learning about ethnic and having that as a curriculum framework, will that include something like Black history?”
Tracy: Yes! So, uh, the way it’s contextualized for us is, ethnic studies is a broader, um, subject, and then within ethnic studies you can, like, you know, narrow it down to Black Studies, Native American Studies, Asian American Studies. I will say that there’s not total agreement in the State of Washington about Native American Studies being part of ethnic studies, and I wanna honor that. Like, some tribes, um, don’t want to be identified as ethnicities because they are tribal sovereignties. Whereas, in other places, like in California, the – the tribal sovereignties there are working with ethnic studies curriculum. So, we just have to honor, you know, what different, um, tribes – how they would like to, um, present themselves in the curriculum. And so, I wanna be clear in Washington State, we are following the law which is using, uh, Since Time Immemorial curriculum. Um, but, you know, when you’re talking about power and oppression, you also have to talk about how this land was stolen from indigenous people here.
April: mhm. That’s huge. That’s absolutely huge. And, so, as we talk about it and – and it being more broad and not compartmentalized, is it something that can be done in a K-12 setting? Is it something that can be buildable? Um, you know, is there a place for a kindergartner to know something about ethnic studies as well as a 12th grader?
Jeff: Absolutely. Um, it – it is K-12. I mean it’s K – K-20, um, but we think about the K-12 system, and, uh, our, our the, our youngest at five year – five years old and six years old, uh, they’re experiencing the, the realities; they’re experiencing systems of oppression. They’re, they, they know what joy and liberation looks like, um, and we – they are – the students are able to understand and learn, uh, about that in greater detail. I mean, it’s, it’s – it’s everywhere, and it – well it should be everywhere. So. . .
Tracy: Yeah, I think a – a good resource is the Teaching Tolerance Social Justice Standards that are K-12 standards, and the, the direct – I, I also am the Ethnic Studies Program Manager for Seattle Public Schools, and the direction we were going is in the grades [K-2] the focus was fairness and how do we treat people, and how do we love and see our differences. Uh, and then I was also working with Dr. LaTaSha Levy, who teaches Ethnic Studies at the UW and, uh, is a Black Studies scholar, and she really pushed us to start with what she calls origins and agency. So, you know, she taught us that we have to first build students up because their humanity has been so degraded, um, because of colonization and anti-Blackness. We have to build students up with their identity so that they are safe enough in their identity to have these conversations about oppression later on.
April: And that’s huge. I love the way you put that: the origins and agency, um, because I think as we talk about lots of different pieces of our curriculum in K-12, agency is a big piece of it, and developing that at a young age in a student is powerful. Um, but to your point about how sometimes mindsets get – get, um, made because of colonization and different things, um, you know, the question about the first thing for me, as a student, I learned about Black history was slavery. Right? That’s – that’s it. And you had said something powerful earlier, Tracy, about slavery and if it – if it’s even a part of Black history, so could you share that with folks? Cuz it kinda hit me, like, right here.
Tracy: Yeah, uh, my favorite example this year is, cuz, you know, as teachers we all love that light bulb moment, but we see it with adults, too. It doesn’t – it’s not reserved for children. So, I was doing, um, – I wasn’t even at a training. I was having a discussion with the building leadership team at an elementary school in Seattle, and it was a – it’s a mostly, um, POC school, but not very many Black students, right? So, it’s mostly Asian students. And a white teacher said, “When I’m teaching in, um, Black History Month about slavery, how do I prevent all the kids from looking at the one Black kid in the class?” And I said, “Well, first of all, you’re framing it incorrectly, because slavery is white people history. White people did that.” So, if you’re teaching slavery during Black History Month, you’re not truly teaching Black history unless you’re talking about how slavery interrupted Black history, right?
Tracy: And so, just, and ethnic studies really pushes us as educators to reframe and create counter narratives to these “master narratives,” right? So we’ve been told that Black history in the United States, like you said, starts with slavery, but no! White people did that! That is white people history. They are the actors in that.
April: Wow. So that – you saw my light bulb moment about ten minutes ago when we had that conversation, and it’s still – even when you – yeah, that – I just, I hope folks really heard that because I think that you’re right with that we’re teaching slavery during Black history, that’s the wrong moment. It – it interrupted our history. It does not define it. It is not the beginning, middle, and end. So, um, thank you for sharing that because it – I, I hope it really hit home with some folks. Um, so, so that brings us to teaching ethnic studies, right? So, it’s – it’s a framework and it’s important how that framework is presented and who it’s presented by, so can you, um, tell me your thoughts – both of your thoughts on, on who should be teaching ethnic studies and – and pan-ethnic studies, as you put it?
Jeff: Do you wanna start, Tracy?
Tracy: Um – I’m gonna let Jeff start this one.
Jeff: Ok. Um, really when it comes down to it, when possible, and we all know our K-12 systems. Um, they are white teacher heavy. Um, we – we mean, if, uh, outside of Seattle if you’re, I would say if, if you have, uh, 10% of your staff being, uh, educators of color, that’s a – that’s pretty normal. Um, and so, one of the things that, uh, actually – we make it even more challenging is, like, in certain domains, uh, social studies, English, science, you can get it to the point where there are – it’s almost entirely, or entirely, white educators. So, the first off is, who teaches it is really important. Um, and so, the first thing is, if you can have a critical educator of color teaching ethnic studies, that is the first choice, um, but as I noted – hinted at, not all systems will, uh, have critical educators of Color, uh, in their just to begin with, and so, it’s after that, um, that we begin to look at what you need is – you know, well-trained, critical, white, scholars doing this one as the back-up plan.
April: mhm, mhm
Tracy: I wanna add to that, that even in systems that may have, uh, critical educators of Color, oftentimes it’s a violent place for educators of Color to be, and especially an educator of Color who is challenging the system. Uh, and so your system might have a critical educator of Color who does not feel comfortable stepping into that position, and we should not expect educators of Color to step into that position, and so that’s where a critical, anti-racist white educator might come in and, and take the heat that’s gonna come with doing that, right?
Um, I wanna also – sorry, my street’s really loud. Well, I’m gonna also focus on the critical piece, right? Because what happens oftentimes is educators of Color are tokenized and put into these positions just because they are a person of Color when they may not have the background, or maybe just as toxic as the next white teacher, right? So, we have, for instance, Black teachers who say, “All lives matter.” They shouldn’t be teaching ethnic studies, right? We have, uh, Latinx or Chicano teachers who say, you know, “I don’t use the term ‘Chicano’ because I’m American,” like they shouldn’t be ethnic studies teachers because they’re not critically analyzing race and, and these terms that we use to define people! So, um, I just want to point that out. It’s – being a person of Color doesn’t automatically qualify you to teach ethnic studies.
April: Absolutely. Well, and I’m glad you did point that out, because I think right now we are having conversations about nuances, and – and one that I like to really point out is that our communities are not monoliths, right? So, we’ve got huge diversity in – diversity in thought within our communities and I welcome it. I love that, but it does mean that in all spaces, our voices aren’t the ones, maybe, that should be prominent depending on, you know, where we’re coming from. Um, you know, I – I studied history in college. Um, my focus was African history, right? So, if you put me into a traditional Black studies class and said, “April, you’re Black, you’ve lived – you’ve got lived experience, now go teach everybody else about being Black,” that’s not my space, right? That’s not what I could communicate on effectively nor what I was, you know, taught, um, in terms of, uh, being a teacher in that space. So, anyway, I’m putting that out there because I think that as leaders and leaders of Color, we’re oftentimes tokenized in that manner and I think that’s one thing that really should be discussed more, um, and just people should be cognizant of it. So, thank you for bringing that up. Um, and I think the connection to both of you guys made was to that anti-racism work, and, so, those going hand-in-hand. So, you have a teacher who’s doing critical race theory, but also a strong background in anti-racism work. So, thank you for that.
Um, so, what can community members – what can the folks at home, the folks in their kitchen listening – what can they do to move the ball in ethnic studies in their community, in their schools? Um, and maybe, you know, Tracy’s sharing with us, I know you work with Seattle Public Schools, and just that journey and what maybe that would look like and then Jeff definitely chiming in cuz you’ve got more of a suburban point of view, as well. So?
Tracy: Um, there will be pushback! Um, I was writing an article based on some interviews that I did with some ethnic studies educators in the state, and I came to the realization that there’s not one, single example of an ethnic studies program in our country that has not faced the threat of dismantling – of being dismantled, and it’s happening in Seattle right now. Um, I’m being pushed out of the district, um, but that’s where community comes in, right? Community comes in because they don’t have the fear of retaliation. Uh, they live – tend – you know, administrators tend to listen to family and students more than they do educators. Um, I will also – I’ve been, um, reminded, recently, that parents and students do face retaliation because students have been retaliated against because of the advocacy of parents, so that – that is a fear, also. But, teachers often face being fired and losing their livelihood, right? So, I think that magic happens when students and community and educators come together and fight together and come up with the strategy together. And that’s one of the roles of Washington Ethnic Studies Now. So we are educators who have been doing this work for years, and, you know, there’s a sudden interest I’ll – you know, in ethnic studies because of the current sociopolitical, um, activities and, and news, but we’ve been here for years! Like, we’re ready to go! We’ve been ready to go, and we kind of formed this organization because the school districts aren’t going fast enough. And so, we formed this organization to push in and, and support those educators where we can and without the fear of being fired, right? Um, so I think that’s where it lies; it’s forming – it doesn’t have to be formal organizations, but networks of people that support each other and show up and, yeah…
April: Yeah. That’s super huge. Jeff, did you have anything you wanted to say on…?
Jeff: Yeah, I just, uh, I think about what the, the – the power of, uh, students, uh, in particular. That’s one of the – of my biases. Um, I, I – I – is students. And so, I think about in, in, uh, Edmonds, uh, one of the most powerful forces that brought ethnic studies was student petitions; students, uh, demanding from their administrators that, that it be brought into their buildings. Um, and so, that’s how it started in Edmonds going on four years ago. Um, and it’s, it’s great. I mean, what others do, it’s – we’ve got one school resist via petition, but anytime students are bringing it up, that’s been like, the, the thing that moves administrators, uh, and departments forward is when the students demand it. Because, I mean, you really can’t say, “No,” to students, um, if you’re in education! Uh, at least you shouldn’t. So, students are just, to me, like, the, the most powerful group, uh, in bringing ethnic studies into spaces.
April: Well, and I think, um, I think you bring to a point, because when I think about students and the power students, um, in the collaboration that you’re talking about, Tracy, because it’s, it’s not just the students; it’s collaborating with community and with the educators, but most of those students tend to be in high school, right? Like, I mean they tend to be of, of an age where they have agency; where they’re like, “I’ve experienced X, Y, and Z, and I need to – I need more from my, my, my, uh, educators.” So, but it really is, to your point, a K-12, um, proposition. So, I’m thinking about the legislature. I’m thinking about movements, um, you mentioned Since Time Immemorial curriculum, right? That was a legislative, um, policy that we said, “Yep, this is gonna be taught in our schools.” So, what can we do from that level – at the legislative level to, um, have kind of this movement undergirded, you know, with this has to be taught in some manner?
Tracy: There is legislation – it – that exists currently, uh, sponsored by Senator Hasegawa for, um, it’s a suggested model curriculum and there is a committee at the OSPI who’s working on that; however, the language in the, in the legislation, itself, is very watered down and it’s what we would call multiculturalism and not – it’s not anti-racist at all. There are people who are on the committee who are pushing for it to be anti-racist, but that committee was formed through a white-normed process, and so there are some people on the committee who probably shouldn’t be there because they don’t understand ethnic studies or are actually opposed to ethnic studies and anti-racism. And so, Jeff and I have been pushing hard on, on that committee to recognize that, and they are working on, on some changes, but it – it’s not enough. For example, there’s one Black educator on that committee.
Tracy: Um, Right? And so…
April: Yeah, no. I’m saying, “Wow,” and I’m in education spaces. I’m like, “Wait, what?”
Tracy: Right? Um, and so, we’re pushing for that. One thing – one of our goals as Washington Ethnic Studies Now is to work on legislation, and we’ve met with Senator Hasegawa, and it’s, it’s in the works to meet him again, um, to have some legislation around mandatory anti-racist PD, or professional development, for pre-service teachers, so while they’re, you know, working on becoming teachers and getting their certificate. But also, I just had a conversation with Alexandra Manuel who’s the president of the, um, Professional Standards – Professional Education Standards Board, um, and we talked about having it be part of the recertification process. So for example, right now, as teachers that, uh, we have to have so many hours of STEM professional development, why can’t we also mandate so many hours of anti-racist – and not anti – bias…
April: Yes, anti-racism.
Tracy: clear distinction – anti-racist professional development in order to recertify in the state?
April: That’s huge, and I guess, I didn’t, um, yeah, that PD piece of it and cracking that, um, that piece will be huge because it is, I think huge, um, I’m an advocate of more PD, more days paid for PD for our teachers and professionals. They need it. They deserve it. Um, and I think having something like anti-racism work worked into that would be really powerful because I’m, I’m hearing from staff even in our own district saying, “We want it! We want this training. We want these tools. We want this vocabulary so that we can do the work that needs to be done.” So, that’s, um, that’s a great way to look at it.
We’re getting some awesome questions from our friends, both on our webinar and on Facebook. Um, so, one is from one of our Facebook friends. Um, Tracy spoke about their – who shouldn’t be ethnic studies teachers. What would make someone equipped to be an ethnic studies teacher in either of your perspectives. And, I think you covered a little bit, but, like, if you just wanted to sum it up in terms of that, yeah – that anti-racist perspective.
Tracy: Well, of course, someone who has an ethnic studies degree (laughs) would be ideal. Um, but, you know, I work – the people I work with in Seattle Public Schools, I think zero of them have ethnic studies degrees. I think one has, like, a Black Studies degree, and maybe two have Black Studies degrees. Um, my de – my undergraduate degree is in Social Sciences. So, if somebody who has studied and worked with, or had professional development in critical race theory, um, and ethnic studies, because even though critical race theory is part of ethnic studies, they’re not synonymous; so, you need critical race theory to teach ethnic studies. Um, but, yeah, I think – and that’s another thing we talked about with the- with, uh, Alexandra Manuel is, uh, mini-cert; some kind of certification that teachers can get to qualify them to teach ethnic studies. So, that’s – that’s been talked about, too. Um, yeah, somebody who has a deep knowledge and understanding of critical race theory and then professional development in ethnic studies, and that’s another goal of Washington Ethnic Studies Now is – is to provide those opportunities because there – there’s a void. There’s not a lot of people who have expertise in ethnic studies, uh, especially in Washington State. I know Dr. Wayne Au is – is one of our experts here, and so that’s another service that we want to provide to people because we were missing it in, in our work.
April: That’s huge. Um, another question, which is kind of along the same lines. Everybody’s thinking, like do you need to be a certified teaching – certified, uh, in teaching ethnic studies, or vetted in some way. Is there a process or courses you need to take for certification. Uh, one of our webinar folks have asked that, and I think you kind of covered it, Tracy, but I think the work you’re doing – so I guess to take a it a step further, if I am a, um, new teacher or maybe I’m coming into the profession from a professional background, and I’m like, “Yep, I want to come in and teach ethnic studies,” would I contact your organization to get kind of that additional certification or, or what would I do?
Jeff: Executive Director, I’ll let you answer that one!
April: It’s like, either one!
Tracy: We are not, um, you know, we’re not capable of, of giving certification to people. Our work is advocacy, and so, we are talking to people who make those decisions and advocating for that process. Right now there isn’t a process. It’s up to, um, the district, and a lot of times, superintendents and principals who make those hiring decisions. And so, we would encourage them and hope that they are vetting people and looking at their undergraduate degrees and seeing if they have experience or, you know, what their racial equity work history looks like. Um, but, like I said earlier, oftentimes we’re just seeing people of Color tokenized, or, um, you know, an example of this district wants to do ethnic studies and their curriculum person at the district is a white woman, so they’re gonna move ahead with her anyways, even though they know they shouldn’t because they don’t wanna hire an extra person to do the work, right? That’s usually what happens, and it should not happen that way. It should not. And, um, you know, we call those “named leaders” versus emergent leaders and, and they’re leading the work just because they were named a leader and not because they have any qualifications to do it. So, I think that’s a big concern, too.
April: That’s huge. Um, so, another question which I – I’d love this question. Um, so, let’s say you’ve got an undergraduate degree in ethnic studies, what would be – how, um, so I guess the exact question is, um, have there been talks about ways for folks with undergraduate degrees in ethnic studies to be able to get teaching certificates?
Jeff and Tracy shake their heads to indicate, “No.”
Jeff: I haven’t heard of anything specific. Um…
Jeff: I think – I mean it – if I were in the, you know, the, the post-secondary world, and looking at the masters in teaching programs, and the such, I mean that’s a barrier – financial and, and, and time – um, but, like, that would be an asset, uh, coming into a program, uh, is that, that background – the, the ethnic studies degree, but…
April: Well, and the way I think of it, too, is a lot of programs, um, when I look online, right? You can do, uh, undergrad, um, in English and then also do your masters in teaching at the same time and it seems very, you know, put together and seamless, um, but I think it – for Ethnic Studies, is, is that would be a great – yeah, it’s probably not for our, you know, for the three of us to answer and fix today, but I’m going, “Huh, like, that should be a thing. Like, that should be entered seamlessly,” because Jeff, when you mentioned having 10%, um, you know, faculty of Color at particular school districts, I’m thinking that’s a moon shot right now for some of the districts I’m thinking about. I mean, honestly, cuz we’re looking at, like, 2%, maybe 3%. Um, so 10 would be like our 5 year plan.
Tracy: I think another barrier is people want to put ethnic studies in social studies, and, like Jeff said, social studies is dominated by white men, especially at the high school level. Um, and ethnic studies should be its own program; its own curriculum program. It should not be part of social studies, and a lot of people can’t wrap their minds around that. So, I think that that’s another barrier.
April: Yeah, and that’s huge. And I – and it’s funny, when the, the person who asked about, um, you know, ethnic studies folks being able to get those teaching certificates, I remember my college. It was a fight to get an ethnic studies department, right? Like, department, not, not an add-on, not like, a, uh, asterisk, “and you can do this,” um, so that was huge.
Uh, another really good question just came in and we’re – we are gonna wrap this up soon, but these are great question. Is there a way to partner with community colleges to offer this for college in the high school credit? Um…
Tracy: Yeah, Seattle partners with, uh, North Seattle College for, um, college in the high school credit, and, um, a math ethnic studies teacher at Garfield High School is also working with the UW on a math ethnic studies college in the high school course.
April: That’s awesome.
Jeff: We partner with Ed – Edmonds College. So, Ed – yeah not community college, no – Edmonds College.
April: No, I was gonna say, “Good for you, Jeff.” I’ve been mucking that up ever since it went to a college.
Jeff: Right? I got that?
April: I feel like at some point they’re going to go, “April, we’re a college!” I’m like, “I know! I know!”
Jeff: So, yeah, we’ve been – two years now we’ve been partnering with them and they’ve been great.
April: Oh, awesome. Well, hopefully there’s some folks I think that, uh, you know, watching us from Everett Community College, so hopefully they’ll, um, think about that as well, because I know college in the high school is a powerful program in, um, and just really a gateway for so many of our students, um, to be able to have that as an offering in high school and get college credit would be absolutely huge. Um, so yeah, that is wonderful.
Well, as we wrap up, I just want, um, either of you to talk about this exciting assembly that’s coming up this weekend and where folks can find more information. I don’t know; is it too late to register? Um, you know, what – just give me – let’s tell them about the, the work, Tracy.
Tracy: So, we’ve found that – like I said, there’s not a lot of opportunities out there for people to meet and, and share ideas around ethnic studies, so, that’s one of our goals we have for, um, our ethnic studies assembly, and it started last year when Dr. Curtis Acosta from the Tucson Mexican-American studies program came and, and helped us organize, and it’s – it’s not, um, a conference. It’s not professional development. It is an organizing and network opportunity for anti-racist, ethnic studies educators to learn how to build community in their own, um, districts and support each other’s work and push ethnic studies into resistant spaces. And, so, that’s what we’re doing this coming Saturday [June 27th, 2020], and unfortunately, registration is closed, and we were close to maximum capacity which we’re excited about. Um, a lot of good work has come from our last assembly. That’s where we came up with, you know, our push for anti-racist PD and connecting with Senator Hasegawa and the we eventually turned it into, like, an official non-profit, which has been kind of interesting. Uh, so, yeah, that’s, that’s what’s coming up. But we plan to offer some virtual professional development, some professional learning communities, uh, to connect people across the State who don’t have this in their own district or school, so, yeah. And you can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram and it’s @WAEthnicStudies for all three.
April: That’s awesome. So, we are definitely going to publish that when we upload this to Facebook, um, and to Youtube and also will publish a link to your site, because I really want to point out that the work you’re doing is nonprofit. So, um, folks out there who really are passionate about this and want to do something, can’t make the assembly please, um, go to their website and make a donation. We’ll put that on, uh, on a link for our Facebook page, but Washington Ethnic Studies Now is the name of the organization. Tracy and Jeff, I cannot thank you enough for talking with us, um, sharing your thoughts, answering the questions that folks have. Um, I will definitely, um – you know, hopefully connect you with, with interested parties because I feel like there’s a lot of energy out there right now saying, “How can we get this done in our space, in our school district.” Um, and your organization – like you said, Tracy, you’ve been out here doing the work, and so, it’s great that everybody’s like finally waking up and saying, “Oh my gosh!” but, but you’ve been out there doing it. So, I cannot thank you enough. Um, Tracy – Jeff, thank you for coming on Kitchen Conversations. Have a fabulous assembly this weekend and, and hopefully this is just the first of many discussions to come.
Tracy: Thank you.
Jeff: Thank you.
April: Great. Thanks everyone. Have a great weekend – or, I guess great rest of your week. Join us next week on Kitchen Conversations. Yes! Cheers! Um, next on Kitchen Conversations, we’re gonna be talking about common sense gun reforms. So, that’s gonna be a powerful episode you don’t want to miss it. Have a great rest of your week. Bye!